Health Care

[NewDoctorWho]

I rather see it run by the state instead from Washington. I can't understand how we are going to have to have insurance by the year 2015 or we pay a fine. How many people can afford to buy insurance now and the price hasn't dropped to get it it is only going to go higher. I think this going to be a bad mistake in the short term but maybe a great thing later on.

[Phantom_Writer]

Personally, I'd rather something like this be handled by the states since some states are the size of the European countries so many like to name.

Overall though, I agree with some points of Obama care, but others I do not. I dislike the mandate which leads to you having a fine. However, I like that it bans pre-exisiting conditions as a means of ruling out someone.

To me, this bill has bad timing and the mandate to me is the only real issue of it. Forcing people to buy health insurance is partly ridiculous. The main focus should be improving our education on healthy practices and to the best of our abilities, funding free clinics and other such facilities.

The idea of insurance is in case something happens, which if it doesn't the insurance company keeps the money and uses it for someone else. However, in some means that is unfair.

Now I know, everyone likes to talk about how selfish Americans are, but let's take into account unlike many other nations we don't get a month off, we work longer hours than most other countries and we deserve to dictate every bit of money we make.

To me, the only people who should be covered is those who are children until 26, the disabled, elderly and that's about it. There needs to be a bit more personal responsibility in society and whether you want to or not, there should be more of a community focus, than expecting the government to step in because something happened.

Employers need to really take care of their own, and communities need to take care of their own. The government was made to protect us, not serve us and though I certainly don't agree with every decision made on the local, state or federal level, I do believe that they have taken on to much and that is often why they fail.

A lot of their powers need to be trickled back down to the people. It's starting to feel like those with money and power are our masters, and everyone else just lives and works on their land.

Let me digress though. Obamacare has many good points, but the mandate itself needed to be etched out.

[TrollJelly]

Originally Posted by Grabacr8492

No one has the right to free health care, much the same way no one has a right to a job, a car, a house of their own, etc.

Say that to the UK government.

[GnetiS]

Originally Posted by TrollJelly

Say that to the UK government.

Same goes where i live ^^

[KuroShiniHentai]

Originally Posted by GnetiS

Same goes where i live ^^

hurray for free health care

[OldGrumpyBear]

Nothing provided through the government is free T_T it's just that nobody sees the true costs.

I'd love to debate this, but it needs more study. Sadly, encasing "health care reform" in a 2700 page shell of bovine scatology is a great defense against someone like me who wants to see if there is anything worthwhile in the whole mess. The things about it that I DO know are pretty damning, though...

[KitsuneKageKun]

Originally Posted by Grabacr8492

Let me put it this way. Health care, the act of receiving medication or assistance when one is sick, has never EVER been free, and it's not free under a Socialized System either. Under a socialized system, the costs are either lumped into your tax rates (in small systems, this is enough to pay for the production costs), or borrowed.


No one has the right to free health care, much the same way no one has a right to a job, a car, a house of their own, etc.

Very interesting but irrelevant to what I said.

Originally Posted by Grabacr8492

Besides, anyone in America can go to an Emergency Room, and they can not be refused treatment. It was never access to Healthcare that was the problem. It was always access to insurance. The argument didn't run "30 million people don't have access to healthcare," it ran "30 million Americans are without insurance." And Insurance is completely different.

As I understand then inferring from what you have said is that this insurance covers the the medical issues that do not fall under emergencies. This would mean the argument is about whether or not it is worth keeping people in a first world state of health. Well if anyone is confused as to this moral grey area it is better to keep everyone at level of health over that of a bare minimum, due to the fact healthy people can contribute to society and human race requires it of all human beings to be contributing where they can to the progression of the species.

Originally Posted by Grabacr8492

Socialized Healthcare plagues Europe, in countries with populations far less than America.

An interesting view you hold there however countries such as the UK and Switzerland both have socialised Health Care of various natures and yet they are financial and intellectual centers of the world.

Originally Posted by Grabacr8492

A government healthcare system is already in place for certain age demographics. ITs called Medicare, and the effects of the waste and bad economics of these programs are NOT a "small if not nonexistent hindrance." The US government currently runs deficits over $1 trillion dollars. This means they exceed their planned spending by $1 trillion each fiscal year. That spending isn't on the military, it isn't on infrastructure, and it certainly isn't on paying government employees. The deficits in America exist because of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, all the kinds of programs you insist wouldn't even be felt by the average American.

This state is just evidence that what the USA already has is poorly managed. Yes your are right in saying that USA's deficit is caused by social security but this is due to fact various administrations have borrowed against social security. This is why 46% of the USA is owned by foreign governments, however please forgive my slight digression for cost is a low reason when it comes to preserving life and well being .

[Grabacr8492]

Originally Posted by KitsuneKageKun

Very interesting but irrelevant to what I said.

"Put like this Health Care should be available as an excepted part of society, in the fact that it exists and it is there"

Ignoring the obvious grammar mistake (accepted, not excepted), you just laid out an argument hinging upon the perception that Healthcare is a right. Considering that, my comments were quite relevant. Cars are an "excepted" part of society. Doesn't mean the government should buy me a car. Houses are an "excepted" part of society. Doesn't mean the government should buy me a house.

Originally Posted by KitsuneKageKun

As I understand then inferring from what you have said is that this insurance covers the the medical issues that do not fall under emergencies. This would mean the argument is about whether or not it is worth keeping people in a first world state of health. Well if anyone is confused as to this moral grey area it is better to keep everyone at level of health over that of a bare minimum, due to the fact healthy people can contribute to society and human race requires it of all human beings to be contributing where they can to the progression of the species.

Incorrect entirely. You have no idea how healthcare systems work, do you? You can still go to a doctor for normal things like a cold without health insurance, if you can find one that will treat you (yes, they can be found, its just that so rarely do people come to the doctor without insurance, you don't see it too often). You'll just have to pay everything up front, instead of paying a $20 copay while the insurance company pays the rest, out of the money it earned from your monthly payments and playing the stock market with that money.

Originally Posted by KitsuneKageKun

An interesting view you hold there however countries such as the UK and Switzerland both have socialised Health Care of various natures and yet they are financial and intellectual centers of the world.

Point? Look at the UK right now. Just look at its economic situation with an objective view. It may be considered a financial center of the world, but the Eurozone crisis hasn't left you unscathed, and neither did the collapse in 2007. And even Switzerland has privatized healthcare. You see, in the Swiss system, there are private companies who provide the healthcare to everyone, after receiving payment from the government for their services, and the government pays for it via taxes. Yet, there is no government entity that provides the insurance, it os private entities who the government pays to give care. So socialized medicine doesn't quite accurately describe the Swiss system, and even then, the quality of Swiss care has decreased in the last few years.

Originally Posted by KitsuneKageKun

This state is just evidence that what the USA already has is poorly managed. Yes your are right in saying that USA's deficit is caused by social security but this is due to fact various administrations have borrowed against social security. This is why 46% of the USA is owned by foreign governments, however please forgive my slight digression for cost is a low reason when it comes to preserving life and well being .

And yet, France's healthcare has been operating in the red on its budget since the 1980s. The Dutch tried socialized medicine, it was awful, so they scrapped it back in 2006 (?) and re-privatized the system!!

Cost is everything. what happens when you don't have money to pay for life and well-being? You can't pay for research and development without money, and you won't get people to work for free without enslaving them. Now, if you propose to eliminate money entirely, and have a society where people give things away like health care out of their own generosity, I suggest you take an economics course on Money and Banking, and then wake up to reality.

Its really simple. In a Monopolistic Market or Oligopolistic Market, there is A) less of the good, and B) higher prices. ALWAYS. You want health insurance to be affordable, efficient, and widely available? Make it a competitive free market. The competitive free market always allocates resources most efficiently, there is more of the good available, and the prices are always lower.

[dancingINK]

Originally Posted by xVV

"If the government can make me buy health care if I don't want it, what's next? Are they going to make me buy broccoli because it's good for me?".

This about sums up the issue for me because it is actually very true.

If the government can pass even one law mandating we do something simply because they believe it is for our benefit, then there is nowhere for it to stop. Anything they claim will harm us can be outlawed and any number of new laws put in place requiring we do certain things for 'our own good'. We are already seeing this here and there (in America) with regulations and penalties falling on organic produce and raw foods. It's for your health and safety, they say. Well I say, bugger off! The federal government isn't my parent or owner and if I want to drink raw milk (which is immensely better for you and perfectly safe if you have a clean operation) then that should be my decision and mine alone. Likewise, if I want to go without health insurance, that should be my choice to do so.

And never mind the massive price tag on this plan. Mired in an ever rising debt, in a period of worldwide economic instability and all they can think of is spending more money. It would seem the American government as a whole does not live in the real world. Either that or they are completely stupid when it comes to math. Possibly both.

[xVV]

Originally Posted by Phantom_Writer

Personally, I'd rather something like this be handled by the states since some states are the size of the European countries so many like to name.

Overall though, I agree with some points of Obama care, but others I do not. I dislike the mandate which leads to you having a fine. However, I like that it bans pre-exisiting conditions as a means of ruling out someone.

To me, this bill has bad timing and the mandate to me is the only real issue of it. Forcing people to buy health insurance is partly ridiculous. The main focus should be improving our education on healthy practices and to the best of our abilities, funding free clinics and other such facilities.

The idea of insurance is in case something happens, which if it doesn't the insurance company keeps the money and uses it for someone else. However, in some means that is unfair.

Now I know, everyone likes to talk about how selfish Americans are, but let's take into account unlike many other nations we don't get a month off, we work longer hours than most other countries and we deserve to dictate every bit of money we make.

To me, the only people who should be covered is those who are children until 26, the disabled, elderly and that's about it. There needs to be a bit more personal responsibility in society and whether you want to or not, there should be more of a community focus, than expecting the government to step in because something happened.

Employers need to really take care of their own, and communities need to take care of their own. The government was made to protect us, not serve us and though I certainly don't agree with every decision made on the local, state or federal level, I do believe that they have taken on to much and that is often why they fail.

A lot of their powers need to be trickled back down to the people. It's starting to feel like those with money and power are our masters, and everyone else just lives and works on their land.

Let me digress though. Obamacare has many good points, but the mandate itself needed to be etched out.

A lot of good points here I'm glad you made. Especially about the children, disabled, and elderly. To the people who suffer the most and need healthcare, programs like medicare are really important. I watch my mom suffer with RSD (look it up if you care) and I don't know what she would do without medicare. She's 100% disabled verified by the state and all. My point being though that there are people out there who really depend on these programs.

One thing about the mandate though is that it's crucial for making things like preexisting conditions possible. Insurance companies aren't going to want to just take in a bunch of sick people without balancing it out with the rest of the country. The timing may seem poor but health reform really is important. I don't know the numbers, but from what I've heard Obamacare actually saves money for the government.

It would be nice if employers could provide health care but that's just too much of a burden. I agree that people should be working to get such benefits, but a lot of small businesses couldn't afford the costs. They already have to insure us while we work, to add to the costs and insure our health would drown many companies. Because of those costs, less jobs would be created as they would have to pay for more benefits. Don't forget the state of the economy and that job creation is one of the top priorities right now.